Talk:Pseudonaught (3.5e Class)
Balance Giving all enemies up to a -12 to attacks, stunning all enemies within range for 15 rounds as well as ability damage, and feebleminding all enemies within range... all of these are wizard-level abilities. This class is obviously wizard-level. --Ghostwheel 10:06, November 17, 2009 (UTC) :Well, yeah, sure, maybe when you optimize it, but +12 wisdom is hard to come by unless you bend every brain cell you have upon getting it. Not to mention you just listed the higher end of this classes ability. You could, as an average vagary, have sickened, concealment, prevent AoOs, difficult terrain, and teleport. Not that great, right? Now, you could argue that the lower level vagaries are too powerful, but they were meant to be powerful, so this class could have a little shiney toy early on. Also, I just noticed an edit I forgot to make due to your comment, thank you. → Rith (talk) 10:27, November 17, 2009 (UTC) :: Do we say that a wizard is wizard-level because they can cast fireball, lightning bolt, and polar ray? Same argument. And difficult terrain is REALLY good, especially under Tome rules. Same with full concealment, since you can't target and have to guess the squares that enemies are in. Furthermore, it's foolish to say that +12 wis is hard to come by. You can easily get it by having a starting wis of 18, +5 (level) +5 (tome) +6 (item). Templates or races that get bonuses to wis just make it even worse. Seriously, think before you type. --Ghostwheel 10:30, November 17, 2009 (UTC) :::Now calm down Ghosty, we're just talking here. But, on the note of wizard level and wizards, I must simply state that the wizard class is not actually wizard level, it's only called wizard level, because wizards (and other casters) have the easiest time reaching it, and something is not wizard level unless you cannot be anything but wizard level with it. Now, this class isn't really intended to be used with Tome rules, since, if it were, I would have given it Tome BAB, but all the same, the class doesn't really give 'difficult terrian' anyways, it simply makes one square of movement equal 10 feet, which does the same thing as difficult terrian, it just never says 'difficult terrian'. Though, I think you may be correct about the total concealment, seeing as the Psuedonaught isn't affected by the miss chance, I've always been a little iffy on that particular one, but no one ever said it was unbalanced when I asked them. Though, perhaps I should put a 'cool down' timer on the vagary ability itself. I've been toying with that a bit lately, after playtesting it. Also, on the note of ability scores, this class is a melee class, meaning that, with it's wisdom focus, it has MAD, so, yes, it's reasonable to say '+12' wisdom, but you're not necessarily gonna immediately focus on it, when your hp is so low, and your main damage source damages you, or when you have bad 'to hit' or your reflex save is suffering. → Rith (talk) 10:56, November 17, 2009 (UTC) ::::I really do think this is wizard level or, at the very least, you never tried to playtest this with the SGT. That whole thing where you nauseate everyone in a 60' area except the guys you like for like 10 rounds as a swift action is retardedly good (that is wizard good and beyond) at any level of the game. I mean seriously, a lot of this stuff here is just too much awesome when you can do it as a swift action. Surgo 20:58, November 17, 2009 (UTC) :::::My two coppers. First, regarding this, I must disagree: :::::If we were following this methodology a wizard would not be wizard level, since, as the balance point stage asserts: :::::The balance point, however, is called "Wizard Level." From that it can be extrapolated that classes are judged not based on the low end of their capability, but rather on their potential. Furthermore, that each of the lower balance levels are rated against how long they stack up well against the wizard level implies building up to a higher point, hence potential. :::::With that in mind, while there are certainly elements of this class that are rogue level, there are others that are clearly wizard level. The concealment vagary is simply devastating. I don't think there's a first level ability anywhere that compares. The damage one is also notable, since most enemies at that level do not deal a lot of damage. A Wisdom score of 20, easily achievable at first level, would cancel out five points of damage from each attack. That's essentially giving DR 5/- at first level to your entire party. These effects are not necessarily inappropriate in and of themselves, but they are inappropriate for the level at which they are available. With that allowance given, there are other effects that are wizard regardless of when obtained, such as the mass feeblemind effect, which would be the equivalent of an eighth or ninth level spell, and a pretty damn good one at that. :::::The point is, the class can be played at either wizard or rogue level, but as of this moment it is in between. Using the rule of potential, that would make it wizard level. That is not to say it could not be rogue level with some adjustment, but at this moment I would lean on the safe side and call it wizard. I would also add that there's nothing wrong with being wizard level. Wizard level is something that many people enjoy playing at. There's no reason that the pseudonaught can't be wizard level and still be a great class. -- Jota 21:05, November 17, 2009 (UTC) ::::::Alright, well, I don't like doing this, considering that, should someone pop over and read this talk page, they'll get down here and say 'Well that's anti-climatic', but this has been discussed and tossed around in chat, and I'm sorry you guys missed all the discussing, but the conclusion that was reached was 'nauseated goes to exhausted' and 'add once per encounter limit' and 'make it be a move action'. Coming back after these messages with the post-playtesting. → Rith (talk) 21:46, November 17, 2009 (UTC) Correct for spelling/grammer? Do you mind if we correct for spelling and grammar? --Be well 10:45, November 17, 2009 (UTC) :Nah man, go right ahead, I suck at that stuff. → Rith (talk) 10:56, November 17, 2009 (UTC) Vagary How often may a Vagary be used? I see where you said it is a swift action, but nothing indicating frequency. Is it at-will? --Be well 10:47, November 17, 2009 (UTC) :Well, it currently is at-will, but that may be changing in the not too distant future, so hold your horses :P. → Rith (talk) 10:56, November 17, 2009 (UTC) SGT So let's put this thing through the actual SGT. We'll take a fairly standard Pseudonaught with the concealment and the one that forces people to move 10' for every 5' they move (so no 5' steps, for example) as well as Stand Still and a reach weapon. *Magical runes - no way to heal oneself or fly above them, so we'll call this a loss. *Fire Giant - the fire giant's going to be lost inside the vagary and have no way of knowing which square to target with its attacks. Furthermore, it won't be able to move around since the Pseudonaught can Stand Still it when it tries to move. Win. *Blue Dragon - with its blindsense, the dragon can detect which square the pseudonaught fills, and make strafing breath weapon runs. Loss. *Bebilith - while the bebilith has scent, it has no idea how close the Pseudonaught is, and thus falls prey to the concealment as quickly as the fire giant did. Win. *Vrock - same deal. Win. *Tag team of mind flayers - again, no clue where the Pseudonaught is, they might well mind blast each other. Plus the Pseudonaught's going to have a high wis and has a high will progression. Another win. *The necromancer's undead aren't going to be able to hit the pseudonaught, and the necromancer isn't going to be able to target the pseudonaught due to not having line of sight. The pseudonaught can take his time once he's near the necromancer, and kill him. Win. *The trolls will probably attack each other most of the time in the concealment, easy picking for the pseudonaught. Win. *The horde of shadows has no clue where the pseudonaught is. Even with a 50% miss chance, it's simply a war of attrition, with the pseudonaught taking no damage in the end, and thus surviving since they have no clue where he is. All in all, this gives us no 50/50s, 2 losses, and 7 wins. Final verdict: The class doesn't pass the SGT. --Ghostwheel 01:27, November 18, 2009 (UTC) :Well, first off, you're interpretation of most of those challenges is offensive to the SGT itself. Now, lets stop joking around and take a more serious look here, if you get attacked, you now know where the opponent is coming from (making those large foes with reach equal to yours more scary), enemies don't attack each other unless the DM makes them (which would make that a DM fait result, go figure), and when you have a horde of foes, and only a 50% miss chance, you now have half-a-horde of attacks to withstand (which would generally not result in not taking damage in most cases, except for certain outliers). With those results you can wind up more 50/50 across the board, with a couple of sure wins and a couple of sure loses. Now, having said that, I wasn't actually aware that 50% miss chance = you can't see them at all (Actually, in my opinion, 'you can't see them at all' should be more like 99% miss chance, and was not intended here), perhaps I should add a statement that states that the foes can still see you and each other? If so, how would that be worded? Or, better yet, how would that entire thing be better worded? → Rith (talk) 12:14, November 18, 2009 (UTC) ::I wasn't actually aware that 50% miss chance = you can't see them at all ::It doesn't -- 50% miss chance means 50% miss chance. Full concealment means you can't see them at all and 50% miss chance. Surgo 12:41, November 18, 2009 (UTC) ::: Well, first off, you're interpretation of most of those challenges is offensive to the SGT itself. ::: Instead of making stupid remarks, why not actually address my points? Please, read the Code of Conduct and defend your arguments logically, rather than QQing and blaming people's "interpretation" instead of countering their actual points. ::: Furthermore, at that low level just granting yourself and allies Concealment would be good enough, especially when keeping dip capabilities in mind. I'd also say that things like True Seeing pierce the vagary. --Ghostwheel 15:39, November 18, 2009 (UTC) ::::Surge Man: Thank you, I'll go make the change in wording. ::::Ghosty: I did adress you're points, or, at least the ones that were most hilarious. Example's: ::::If you get attacked, you now know where the opponent is coming from (Omg, where'd that come from?) ::::Enemies don't attack each other unless the DM makes them (Oh dear lord another one) ::::Assassin's Creed II kicks ass (Wait, what?) ::::So, next time, try reading a persons posts before you accuse them of things they didn't do. Though, even if that had been all I had said, that would just be an attack on your interpretation, not on you, and therefore not against this wiki's code of conduct, but would have easily been thrown down, considering no logic would have been backing it up had that been the only thing said. Good thing that wasn't all I said, right? Also, I think I like the idea of the true seeings addition, that'd be an interesting little flavor twist, thank you too. → Rith (talk) 03:02, November 19, 2009 (UTC) :::::Saw the edit to the ability. Now it's just mass displacement on the whole party. Still not balanced, or rogue level for a one-level dip. --Ghostwheel 03:14, November 19, 2009 (UTC) ::::::That makes it a potent defense, for sure, but, only not as much as you claim. If foe X gets 2 attacks (early levels, after all), you're still getting hit once, and that 50% miss chance is failing to prevent you from getting hit enough times to die at that level. This is really only a good defense against single attacks, though, even then, it's just a 50% chance of defense, which is still very potent, and, by averages, lowers damage against X by half, but flipping a coin doesn't make something automatically wizard level. Though, it is potent enough for the need to maybe reconsider. Also, be more friendly, you catch more bee's with honey than you do vinegar. → Rith (talk) 04:20, November 19, 2009 (UTC) ::::::: It sounds like you've never faced displacer beasts before. I have, with a mostly melee party, and it was one of the longest, most boring combats I ever had. Displacement is an excellent defensive spell, at least rogue-level, if not wizard-level all by itself. The downsides of it is that it only lasts for a number of levels equal to one's CL, and requires a touch to affect an ally. To not only gain this ability on yourself, but also to all allies as a swift action at first level (and being able to get it with a dip, one that brings along a good will and fort save as well as full BAB) when it's normally a third-level spell that has the restrictions above is way too powerful for the rogue-level of play. --Ghostwheel 04:37, November 19, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::My thoughts: SRD:Displacement is a third level spell. A mass version of said spell would be sixth or seventh level. Given when spellcasters acquire spells (2n-1), an ability like this should not be available until around level 12 (if you consider ''displacement to be an appropriate third level spell and the mass conversions to also be level appropriate). Displacement also can be beaten by SRD:True Seeing, which the vagary couldn't, at least of when I last checked. In summation, it's not about the ability itself -- "flipping a coin doesn't make something automatically wizard level" -- it is about when it is acquired. -- Jota 04:42, November 19, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::: Just as Jota said; it could still be rogue level, but would need to come into play quite a few levels later. --Ghostwheel 05:03, November 19, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::::Well, first off, I'm gonna respond to Jota's statement, and I'll use a little example for that. Start off looking at the 'foresight' spell, which is ninth level, and cannot be gained until 17th level, yet would 'uncanny dodge and +2 to AC and reflex' be considered unbalanced if you got it at third? Obviously not, since a WotC variant of the barbarian gets it, and even more. Though, having said that, I'll use another example: 'Waves of Fatigue' cannot be gained until ninth level, yet, it's fully reasonable for a person to use have the ability to make someone fatigued without a save at third level. Though, these have little power compared to 50% miss chance, but I'm simply trying to illuminate that, just becasue X doesn't gain Y until Z, doesn't mean something else can't gain Y early than Z. Now, having said that, this is actually more comparable to a 'deeper darkness' spell, only bumped down a level due to this not actually being concealment, but bumped back up a level, considering it's 50%, instead of 20%, then bumped up again, considering it has a few 'ebon eyes' tied in, so, close to about 4th level, and, by the 'model after wizard' arguement (or cleric, in this case), is gainable at 7th level. Of course, I'm not saying that this shouldn't be ever gained before 7th level, or whatnot, since I had a point on that earlier, but I was just being nitpicky on the arguement itself. Though, to Ghosty, well, it's a move action now, so, a bit more difficult to pull off, but I can see your point, and it's a very valid one, but, as I said earlier, this was intended for 'a shiney toy early on'. Of course, this could be a little too shiney, you guys have opinions on that, perhaps? Now, I'm sick currently, so I'm probably go lay back down in a bit, but please, feedback is welcome. → Rith (talk) 20:35, November 19, 2009 (UTC) :First, foresight and waves of fatigue are irrelevant to the present discussion. Yes, they are examples, but they aren't relevant examples. This is discussing the balance of a mass displacement. Second, this is better than deeper darkness because it discriminates (is party friendly), cannot be beaten by a baatezu's darkvision, cannot be beaten by light spells, and as you said, offers a significant upgrade from the 20% miss chance offered by deeper darkness. I personally don't see the bump down. This is the direct equivalent of a mass displacement spell. If you want to argue that displacement should be a lower level spell, you can do that, but I don't really think it should be. If you think the mass conversions are bad you could say that too, but I'm not buying this as a fourth level spell. Even if you argue it as a modification of deeper darkness rather than of displacement, the combination of increasing the miss chance to 50% and not affecting your party should make it at least a fifth level spell, if not higher. That's ninth level at a minimum, and I'm not really advocating that as a compromise, to be honest. -- Jota 01:26, November 20, 2009 (UTC) ::Well, they were only stated to illustrate a point, that point being "just becasue X doesn't gain Y until Z, doesn't mean something else can't gain Y early than Z". I was merely stating that "Savage Psychic Knight's don't get bonus feats till 11th level" cannot be used as "Getting bonus feats before 11th level is broken". It's the whole 'SP≠0' being subalternation of 'S~P=0', and therefore not valid in this discussion (yay for logic 205!). Though, I'm afraid you may not understand, even after I explained why I brought them up. Well, you obviously think they are not comparable to this situation, and I agree, a miss chance is much better than those things, but I wasn't comparing them to this situation, I was using them to show a point, a point has been stated already. Now then, I already took into account the 'excludes allies' part, hence the "bumped up again, considering it has a few 'ebon eyes' tied in" comment I made. So, one up for the allies part, one up for the increase, one down for the technical decrease, and, if you think the micellaneous things (light spells and fiend vision (hate categorizing them all into 'baatezu', cause there are fiends that aren't baatezu)) are important, then back up for technical increase, so, I guess I could potentially see someone call that fifth level. Of course, I've already stated that this being equivelant to a spell of any level, is irrelevant. What is relevant is how this impacts gameplay, can we please get back to that? I'm still waiting on your opinion, man (Well, you kind of already gave it, saying that 50% miss chance is too good, but, you didn't reply to the "shiney -- too shiney" part, so yeah, that's what I'm looking for). → Rith (talk) 07:17, November 20, 2009 (UTC) :::The whole XYZ applies when considering the relative strength of other abilities, but there are class features that simply should not be given until a certain point. Once you reach that point they can be given at any time without major consequences, but offering them before a particular point can be unbalancing. For example, if I offer you the ability to fly at first level, I have given you an advantage over most characters. If the ability to fly is mitigated by some kind of penalty this may be fine, but otherwise it isn't really fair or balanced to everyone else. On the other hand, if a class were to receive the ability to fly at level nine after spells like levitate, fly, and air walk become available, then the ability to fly is not such a huge boost, because other people can do it too. If you gave this ability at level 20 it would still be relevant, so in this case (flight) it is fine as long as you wait to give the ability until level five or so, maybe even later since third level spell slots are of significant value at that level. :::Now I am using equivalence to a spell as a measure of power, so that (equivalence) is relevant. If you gain access to a level-appropriate spell before you should, that can have a negative impact on gameplay because it can make one character more powerful than the others. There's a reason you have to wait until 2n-1 to get n level spells. If I am calling something the equivalent of a sixth level spell, then I am saying it is probably inappropriate to make it available to player characters before level 11. As I've said two or three times, this depends on whether or not the spell is level-appropriate. I believe that in this case (mass displacement) it is, and therefore is 'too shiny' for a first level character. :::Here's one thought on how you might adjust this. 50% miss chance is a big deal. A smaller percentage is not. Have the vagary offer a 10% miss chance at first level, increasing by 10% every three levels thereafter, but only to a maximum of 5% per point of Wisdom modifier the pseudonaught. That would take you up to a 70% miss chance at level 19 provided you have 38 Wisdom. In a more realistic sense, it will limit the vagary at lower levels to something more level-appropriate, and will probably cap at something close to 50%. If you put an 18 in Wisdom it will carry you to 20% for sure. Wisdom 20 at first and level 8 will net you 35% at said level, and by level 12 you'll probably have a Wisdom-boosting item enough to get you 45% or so, which is relatively close to where I had previously thought mass displacement should become available. :::Lastly, regarding things that don't really matter, I said baatezu (devils) because demons do not get that ability. And your method for measuring spell power, that is using a flat integer for each increase or decrease in the spell's power, is hardly reflective of the relative impacts of those changes. -- Jota 18:14, November 20, 2009 (UTC) ::::Well, that's the thing, I don't have a tiny little balance scale over here and a calculator that goes into the seven millionth decimal place, so, I was ballparking, sure, maybe I was off, but, with fuzzy numbers, I was getting about fourth or fifth level spell. Also, you prolly would've been better with saying 'level appropriate for Xth level', instead of 'equivelant to an Xth level spell', considering that an 'Xth level spell' could be level appropriate, or it could not. Though, yeah, I'm just being nitpicky. ::::I like your suggestion, but the thing seems a little bit clunky, making a player remember 5 things at once just to see what they have. For this, I'm thinking a set number would be better. Perhaps miss chance 20%, though, that might not be worth looking at later on, so, toss out the true seeing part, and make it so that you are still generally well protected on the way out. Thoughts? I wanna make sure this is a good edit before I make it. → Rith (talk) 03:47, November 21, 2009 (UTC) ::::PS: Where does it say 'Baatezu'? ::::: Baatezu is synonymous with Devil. --TK-Squared 13:56, February 4, 2010 (UTC) I Like This i get to kill people with nothing, awesome --Stryker-Fyre 09:40, February 3, 2010 (UTC)